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i used to get my batteries from fasttech.com. great pricing and delivery WAS free for orders over 4 USD. but this was precovid so i dunno anymore.
What batteries are you using?
- Thread starter AlexLTDLX
- Start date
so ... my Battery Odyssey so far:
I had picked A123 Systems AHR32113 as my batteries of choice. (nanophosphate 4Ah, 70C cylindrical LFPs) for a 16S5P configuration. (~48V, 20Ah)
The first seller had to return my money because of "shipping irregularities" (fake shipping, fake tracking number, but AliExpress stepped in).
The second seller is trying to sell me something else than what I had chosen from his offerings (of course for double the money, and shipping quote still pending).
The third seller gave me a price on option one, but twice as expensive and does not yet come back on the shipping question too ...
Sooo I did some more digging re A123Systems and it seems that the technology IS cool (MIT students set up company, got US funding (well ... only half of it!), closed big deal with Fisker...) but then went bankrupt due to some technical issues they had with the modules they had produced for Fisker's Karma (7S3P modules with 20Ah nanophosphate prismatic pouch cells, integrated BMS and monitoring).
Fisker went bankrupt together with them in 2012 ... BUT:
Suddenly Wanxiang popped up and bought both A123Systems and Fisker (both revived). They discontinued ALL cylindrical cells and kept only the prismatic pouch cells and modules/systems (NOT the dreaded Fisker modules though).
The LAST of the cylindrical cells were produced in 2017 (4years ago!).
www.reuters.com
In 2020 Wanxiang A123 inked a huge contract worth 1.2 bn EUR with VW AG (since Porsche seemed very happy from the older days with the 8AH ultraphosphate pouches in some (hybrid?) racing applications...)
www.electrive.com
presskit.porsche.de
Finally ... after some more digging I ordered 64 (for ~48V, 32Ah, in 16S4P) of the super high discharge rate ultrathin 8Ah Ultraphosphate pouch cells (Grade A, same batch, not discontinued!) after making sure he can ship expedited to UAE (my door actually). Total USD 748,- (USD 6.3 / cell plus shipping). If Porsche like them, then they should be fine for me
Here the linky to the deal:
www.alibaba.com
Update in a few weeks (jit for the festive season, testing and such, I might end up with 15S4P or even 15S3P, let's see ...).
Oh ... yes, pouch cells are not easy to "build up" ... but I have some ideas meanwhile ... stay tuned.
I had picked A123 Systems AHR32113 as my batteries of choice. (nanophosphate 4Ah, 70C cylindrical LFPs) for a 16S5P configuration. (~48V, 20Ah)
The first seller had to return my money because of "shipping irregularities" (fake shipping, fake tracking number, but AliExpress stepped in).
The second seller is trying to sell me something else than what I had chosen from his offerings (of course for double the money, and shipping quote still pending).
The third seller gave me a price on option one, but twice as expensive and does not yet come back on the shipping question too ...
Sooo I did some more digging re A123Systems and it seems that the technology IS cool (MIT students set up company, got US funding (well ... only half of it!), closed big deal with Fisker...) but then went bankrupt due to some technical issues they had with the modules they had produced for Fisker's Karma (7S3P modules with 20Ah nanophosphate prismatic pouch cells, integrated BMS and monitoring).
Fisker went bankrupt together with them in 2012 ... BUT:
Suddenly Wanxiang popped up and bought both A123Systems and Fisker (both revived). They discontinued ALL cylindrical cells and kept only the prismatic pouch cells and modules/systems (NOT the dreaded Fisker modules though).
The LAST of the cylindrical cells were produced in 2017 (4years ago!).
Chinese firm wins A123 despite U.S. tech transfer fears
China's largest auto parts maker won U.S. government approval to buy A123 Systems Inc <AONEQ.PK>, a maker of electric car batteries, despite warnings by some lawmakers that the deal would transfer sensitive technology developed with U.S. government money.
www.reuters.com
In 2020 Wanxiang A123 inked a huge contract worth 1.2 bn EUR with VW AG (since Porsche seemed very happy from the older days with the 8AH ultraphosphate pouches in some (hybrid?) racing applications...)
VW's 1.22 billion euro battery deal with Wanxiang A123 - electrive.com
According to so far unconfirmed information from China, Volkswagen has chosen Wanxiang A123 as another battery cell supplier for its electric cars. Apparently, Volkswagen plans to purchase
www.electrive.com
Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG
Finally ... after some more digging I ordered 64 (for ~48V, 32Ah, in 16S4P) of the super high discharge rate ultrathin 8Ah Ultraphosphate pouch cells (Grade A, same batch, not discontinued!) after making sure he can ship expedited to UAE (my door actually). Total USD 748,- (USD 6.3 / cell plus shipping). If Porsche like them, then they should be fine for me
Here the linky to the deal:
3.2v Thin Lipo Battery Super High Discharge Rate 30c A123 3.2v 8ah Lifepo4 Pouch Cell - Buy Thin Lipo Battery,A123,A123 8ah Product on Alibaba.com
3.2v Thin Lipo Battery Super High Discharge Rate 30c A123 3.2v 8ah Lifepo4 Pouch Cell - Buy Thin Lipo Battery,A123,A123 8ah Product on Alibaba.com
Update in a few weeks (jit for the festive season, testing and such, I might end up with 15S4P or even 15S3P, let's see ...).
Oh ... yes, pouch cells are not easy to "build up" ... but I have some ideas meanwhile
... stay tuned.
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MkngStffAwesome
Active member
So ... my Battery Odyssey so far:
All batteries ordered from Aliexpress ( there is no where else to get batteries from )
1)
Im not going to be using RC Lipos ..because.
A) They are not meant to be stored charged as they will puff up ( i have some that this has happened too. )
B) Their operating temperature range is much narrower and i intend on charging / discharging them in the engine bay temps.
C) Poor life expectance (cycles).
D) In my experience they are as dangerous as they are made out to be on the internet.
2)
Headway 38120hp..
I brought these because the internet has always said these are the "best high drain" (low IR) cylindrical cells and they are easy to deal with their screw terminals. However You tube videos have shown these to be Poor drain Batteries (Not low IR)
I was also interested in the difference in "testing" to achieve the Manufactures stated IR (AC) verses a DC IR.
I then went out and bought an AC IR tester and a DC discharger also capable of calculating DC IR.
I needed to know if there was a difference between these two test methods as this would affect purchasing requirements. But also allow me to compare apples with apples
Ali stated the AC IR at <2.5mohms
LINK
While others rate them at <4mohms
LINK
I tested mine at
3.93mohms and 2.65mohms (AC)
52mohms and 48mohms (DC)
What I found was that AC resistances is a MUCH lower number than the Batteries DC resistance and that the AC resistance is a useless number other than for comparing batteries rated in this manner. When you load up the batteries the DC resistance is the actual drop that you'll see.
This means that the HP38120hp are in fact not good at all under a high drain situation and massively sag.
The rated discharge of 120amps continuous is clearly a joke.
Here is a video of such an event. ( He tested them at 50ish DC IR )
3)
I ordered some A123 Systems AHR32113 however i never received these. The seller was able to produce some bogus tracking information which claimed that i had received the batteries. I lost the dispute and my money
4) I ordered some A123 Systems 26650. These were also lost in the mail, But i was able to get my money back.
5) I ordered some 6ah LTO. It has taken 3 month for the seller to actually start the shipping process to me and im sure it will take another 3 months for them to maybe turn up here in New Zealand. The seller stated that thanks to Covid it's nearly impossible to send dangerous goods to New Zealand. I believe this to be true since we are still not allowing people to come to our country.
These are very exciting to me because of their much lower AC IR than the Headways, 5.3 to 7.86 times lower, Assuming manufactures number are correct at 0.5. I Will obviously be testing this, But even if they are substantially higher than this "0.5" then they'll still be viable.
We will have to wait and see. I they are good and i actually receive them then i can order more of them.
Based on you tube they do seem to be "legit" and much better than the Headways.
All batteries ordered from Aliexpress ( there is no where else to get batteries from )
1)
Im not going to be using RC Lipos ..because.
A) They are not meant to be stored charged as they will puff up ( i have some that this has happened too. )
B) Their operating temperature range is much narrower and i intend on charging / discharging them in the engine bay temps.
C) Poor life expectance (cycles).
D) In my experience they are as dangerous as they are made out to be on the internet.
2)
Headway 38120hp..
I brought these because the internet has always said these are the "best high drain" (low IR) cylindrical cells and they are easy to deal with their screw terminals. However You tube videos have shown these to be Poor drain Batteries (Not low IR)
I was also interested in the difference in "testing" to achieve the Manufactures stated IR (AC) verses a DC IR.
I then went out and bought an AC IR tester and a DC discharger also capable of calculating DC IR.
I needed to know if there was a difference between these two test methods as this would affect purchasing requirements. But also allow me to compare apples with apples
Ali stated the AC IR at <2.5mohms
LINK
While others rate them at <4mohms
LINK
I tested mine at
3.93mohms and 2.65mohms (AC)
52mohms and 48mohms (DC)
What I found was that AC resistances is a MUCH lower number than the Batteries DC resistance and that the AC resistance is a useless number other than for comparing batteries rated in this manner. When you load up the batteries the DC resistance is the actual drop that you'll see.
This means that the HP38120hp are in fact not good at all under a high drain situation and massively sag.
The rated discharge of 120amps continuous is clearly a joke.
Here is a video of such an event. ( He tested them at 50ish DC IR )
3)
I ordered some A123 Systems AHR32113 however i never received these. The seller was able to produce some bogus tracking information which claimed that i had received the batteries. I lost the dispute and my money
4) I ordered some A123 Systems 26650. These were also lost in the mail, But i was able to get my money back.
5) I ordered some 6ah LTO. It has taken 3 month for the seller to actually start the shipping process to me and im sure it will take another 3 months for them to maybe turn up here in New Zealand. The seller stated that thanks to Covid it's nearly impossible to send dangerous goods to New Zealand. I believe this to be true since we are still not allowing people to come to our country.
These are very exciting to me because of their much lower AC IR than the Headways, 5.3 to 7.86 times lower, Assuming manufactures number are correct at 0.5. I Will obviously be testing this, But even if they are substantially higher than this "0.5" then they'll still be viable.
We will have to wait and see. I they are good and i actually receive them then i can order more of them.
Based on you tube they do seem to be "legit" and much better than the Headways.
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I do have a question for you gents. When you say stored in reference to Lipo batteries, What time frame are we talking, before an issue could and/or would happen? I ask because I an not new to lipos just new to the higher quality units. I ask because I am testing this as we speak.
Yes I have a couple Lips charged and letting them set to see what will happen well. It has been about 16 days now. They are in a very safe area with nothing but a cement wall on 3 sides and an open area of 20 on the 4th side in my basement. And nothing as of yet. They are fully charged to 4.2 volts. They are fairly large capacity units and one of the more higher end and regarded units in the market. I guess it maybe like many other things, if you cheap out a bit you take a risk of an inferior product.
I using LIPO now for their discharge rate and more importantly is knowing their true discharge rate not the marketing rate of a few seconds burst.
But I will see what happens and keep you guys updated.
Yes I have a couple Lips charged and letting them set to see what will happen well. It has been about 16 days now. They are in a very safe area with nothing but a cement wall on 3 sides and an open area of 20 on the 4th side in my basement. And nothing as of yet. They are fully charged to 4.2 volts. They are fairly large capacity units and one of the more higher end and regarded units in the market. I guess it maybe like many other things, if you cheap out a bit you take a risk of an inferior product.
I using LIPO now for their discharge rate and more importantly is knowing their true discharge rate not the marketing rate of a few seconds burst.
But I will see what happens and keep you guys updated.
MkngStffAwesome
Active member
It is not like it goes from not puffed to puffed over night it's a very slow process and it maybe hard to tell if the puffing is minor...
This is more for the person that is trying to build a "set and forget " setup that they can build and walk away from and never look at for 8 years.
Here are two batteries of mine the 5s on the left which i bought may 2020... it has never been stored charged and has not puffed.
The other battery was bough in august 2018.. it was not stored charged and it did not puff up until i stored it charged from march 2020. Im not sure how long it took to get this bad.. but it has been like this form months.. so i would say it took in the order of months to get like this. IT shouldn't get worse than this now as the voltage is under 4 now.. But if i charged it back up again and left it i assume it would continue to get worse.
( To be honest it looks WAY more puffed in real life )
i have other batteries but these are great cases as i know the exact dates.
Now back to turbo world
I think that in an ideal world the batteries in our E-turbo will basically always be charged and thus puffing could be a real problem... Though in reality it may only be a problem if the car is sitting un used for some time.. maybe when you go on holiday. Now this might only result in minor puffing but over the years this will build up.
When i was considering using lipos i was only going to charge them to 4 volts instead of 4.2 because this should largely stop the puffing issue and greatly increase the cycles and thus killing to birds with one stone (not fully discharging them too). Yes this would reduce the capacity but that's no biggie IMO.
The other idea i had was to simply discharge the lipos a bit if they had been sitting over the storage voltage for some time.. i could do this by simply running the E-Turbo at a lowish RPM.. Though this could be super strange to hear that happening with the engine off. Personally i preferred the previous option than this.
Your obviously welcome to do further " internet" research on this topic as im not trying to convince you of something "New" and this is well documented and expected phenomenon.
This is more for the person that is trying to build a "set and forget " setup that they can build and walk away from and never look at for 8 years.
Here are two batteries of mine the 5s on the left which i bought may 2020... it has never been stored charged and has not puffed.
The other battery was bough in august 2018.. it was not stored charged and it did not puff up until i stored it charged from march 2020. Im not sure how long it took to get this bad.. but it has been like this form months.. so i would say it took in the order of months to get like this. IT shouldn't get worse than this now as the voltage is under 4 now.. But if i charged it back up again and left it i assume it would continue to get worse.
( To be honest it looks WAY more puffed in real life )
i have other batteries but these are great cases as i know the exact dates.
Now back to turbo world
I think that in an ideal world the batteries in our E-turbo will basically always be charged and thus puffing could be a real problem... Though in reality it may only be a problem if the car is sitting un used for some time.. maybe when you go on holiday. Now this might only result in minor puffing but over the years this will build up.
When i was considering using lipos i was only going to charge them to 4 volts instead of 4.2 because this should largely stop the puffing issue and greatly increase the cycles and thus killing to birds with one stone (not fully discharging them too). Yes this would reduce the capacity but that's no biggie IMO.
The other idea i had was to simply discharge the lipos a bit if they had been sitting over the storage voltage for some time.. i could do this by simply running the E-Turbo at a lowish RPM.. Though this could be super strange to hear that happening with the engine off. Personally i preferred the previous option than this.
Your obviously welcome to do further " internet" research on this topic as im not trying to convince you of something "New" and this is well documented and expected phenomenon.
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MkngStffAwesome
Active member
That puffed 5000mah 3s has a AC resistance of 3.9 milliohms total OR 1.3 per cell
and the 2200mah 5s has 11.9 or 2.38 per cell.
This makes both of these better than the 8000mah 38120hp, though i have not tested these in a DC test but im sure they will be.
and the 2200mah 5s has 11.9 or 2.38 per cell.
This makes both of these better than the 8000mah 38120hp, though i have not tested these in a DC test but im sure they will be.
I just tested one of my 4s 6,000 mah Zeee packs - 4.5-5.9 milliohms per cell. Hmm. So I put one of my Zeee 9,000 mah packs on the charger (an ISDT D2) - I got 6.2, 6.7, 6.7, 6.7. But those were kept out in the garage, where it's about 50* F. So I put a small space heater pointed at the battery while it was charging, and the readings changed to 2.9, 5.0, 4.2, 3.7. I'd bet those batteries still aren't up to 65* F.
So the moral of the story: battery temperature makes a huge difference on IR. Which is something we saw in testing the electric turbo in the car - the second hit was always more potent than the first hit, when the batteries were colder.
I wonder if the LTO cells are less affected? According to everything I've found, they should be - but I'd rather see it for myself than the googler telling me it is so.
So the moral of the story: battery temperature makes a huge difference on IR. Which is something we saw in testing the electric turbo in the car - the second hit was always more potent than the first hit, when the batteries were colder.
I wonder if the LTO cells are less affected? According to everything I've found, they should be - but I'd rather see it for myself than the googler telling me it is so.
MkngStffAwesome
Active member
In that video i posted about the 38120's as they got warmer they got better ... Also like other have asked how were your resistance measured or the numbers mean nothing ?
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Shockingly, if you take an average of about .0035 ohms per cell, multiply by 16 (the number of cells I was running), multiply by 285 amps (what the ESC datalog said I was pulling; not the ammeter in the dash - that one seems off); you get a voltage drop of 16. Which, taking cable losses into account, is surprisingly close to the actual voltage we saw at the ESC - 67 volts fully charged, dropping down to an average of about 50 volts; with a low of 48. I figure somewhere in the ballpark of 2 volts for cable losses - 67 volts - (16 volts (battery internal losses) + 2 volts (cable losses)) = 49 volts. Interesting. And apparently, the Zeee batteries aren't very good.
Just for info on how I measure my C and resistance of my Lipos.
My charger can measure resistance while charging. I also have an ESR Internal Resistance Meter Mark II that measures Resistance and True C rating. Both are within a few hundredths of each other so pretty damn accurate
My charger can measure resistance while charging. I also have an ESR Internal Resistance Meter Mark II that measures Resistance and True C rating. Both are within a few hundredths of each other so pretty damn accurate
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so ... my Battery Odyssey so far:
I had picked A123 Systems AHR32113 as my batteries of choice. (nanophosphate 4Ah, 70C cylindrical LFPs) for a 16S5P configuration. (~48V, 20Ah)
The first seller had to return my money because of "shipping irregularities" (fake shipping, fake tracking number, but AliExpress stepped in).
The second seller is trying to sell me something else than what I had chosen from his offerings (of course for double the money, and shipping quote still pending).
The third seller gave me a price on option one, but twice as expensive and does not yet come back on the shipping question too ...
Sooo I did some more digging re A123Systems and it seems that the technology IS cool (MIT students set up company, got US funding (well ... only half of it!), closed big deal with Fisker...) but then went bankrupt due to some technical issues they had with the modules they had produced for Fisker's Karma (7S3P modules with 20Ah nanophosphate prismatic pouch cells, integrated BMS and monitoring).
Fisker went bankrupt together with them in 2012 ... BUT:
Suddenly Wanxiang popped up and bought both A123Systems and Fisker (both revived). They discontinued ALL cylindrical cells and kept only the prismatic pouch cells and modules/systems (NOT the dreaded Fisker modules though).
The LAST of the cylindrical cells were produced in 2017 (4years ago!).
Chinese firm wins A123 despite U.S. tech transfer fears
China's largest auto parts maker won U.S. government approval to buy A123 Systems Inc <AONEQ.PK>, a maker of electric car batteries, despite warnings by some lawmakers that the deal would transfer sensitive technology developed with U.S. government money.
In 2020 Wanxiang A123 inked a huge contract worth 1.2 bn EUR with VW AG (since Porsche seemed very happy from the older days with the 8AH ultraphosphate pouches in some (hybrid?) racing applications...)
VW's 1.22 billion euro battery deal with Wanxiang A123 - electrive.com
According to so far unconfirmed information from China, Volkswagen has chosen Wanxiang A123 as another battery cell supplier for its electric cars. Apparently, Volkswagen plans to purchase
Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG
Finally ... after some more digging I ordered 64 (for ~48V, 32Ah, in 16S4P) of the super high discharge rate ultrathin 8Ah Ultraphosphate pouch cells (Grade A, same batch, not discontinued!) after making sure he can ship expedited to UAE (my door actually). Total USD 748,- (USD 6.3 / cell plus shipping). If Porsche like them, then they should be fine for me
Here the linky to the deal:
3.2v Thin Lipo Battery Super High Discharge Rate 30c A123 3.2v 8ah Lifepo4 Pouch Cell - Buy Thin Lipo Battery,A123,A123 8ah Product on Alibaba.com
3.2v Thin Lipo Battery Super High Discharge Rate 30c A123 3.2v 8ah Lifepo4 Pouch Cell - Buy Thin Lipo Battery,A123,A123 8ah Product on Alibaba.com
Update in a few weeks (jit for the festive season, testing and such, I might end up with 15S4P or even 15S3P, let's see ...).
Oh ... yes, pouch cells are not easy to "build up" ... but I have some ideas meanwhile
update:
My 64 pouch cells are here ... almost
MkngStffAwesome
Active member
WOW my batteries turned up and with my AC tester i got between 0.30-0.31 milli Ohms ! Awesome.
This is less than a tenth of the resistance for the lifepo4 38120Hp !
DC discharge resistance at 10 amps
11-12 milli Ohms ( about 4 times less than the headways )
I haven't done a capacity test on any of the batteries because i don't have a means to charge them (i'll buy that now ish)
These actually come it better than Spec and should be perfect for what i want to use them for (150 amps)
Now i need to save up and buy ALOT more of them.
s.click.aliexpress.com
This is less than a tenth of the resistance for the lifepo4 38120Hp !
DC discharge resistance at 10 amps
11-12 milli Ohms ( about 4 times less than the headways )
I haven't done a capacity test on any of the batteries because i don't have a means to charge them (i'll buy that now ish)
These actually come it better than Spec and should be perfect for what i want to use them for (150 amps)
Now i need to save up and buy ALOT more of them.
82.5US $ |Lto Battery 2.4v 6ah Long Life Cycle Rechargeable Cylindrical Battery Cell Power Bank For Cold Roll Box Toy Tool Home Appliances - Rechargeable Batteries - AliExpress
Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com
s.click.aliexpress.com
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nothing special yet ... this is how 64 8Ah 30C pouch cells look like ... arrived and stacked in prep for testing
BRAND NEW apparently!
took 2 arbitrary of those lifepo4 pouches and did AC IR test with my YR2035+ :
0.51 and 0.52 milli Ohms ! Not bad for lifepo4! (and considering I am planning to run 16s4p that is just GREAT!)
will do a comprehensive test of all regarding AC IR ... and some loadtests next ...
@MkngStffAwesome : if you have a current and voltage regulated lab power supply you could very well charge single cells to your liking
(they do smell funny though
)
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I got mostly inspired by Nabil Hanke here:
I think my connectors will be a variant of the above! (some clamping of tabs with the right size bus bars and some screws not going through the tabs themselves, maybe?)
there are of course the "simpler" methods like:
but I like Nabils Idea much more for high amp applications!
Certainly I am NOT considering soldering like described below!: