What should newbies know?

TDStuart

TDStuart

New member
I figured I would start off the forum by asking what should newbies know? Mostly referring to people who have limited car and electrical knowledge.

I know that much of the electric turbo space is mostly untouched and requires everything to be done by hand, but I thought it would be nice to get some knowledge as a starting point so others (and me) can see how much work and how much money would go into a project like this!

I know the very basic concept, attach a high-power electric motor to a turbo. Give it some power and hook it up to your intake.

For example:
What kind of turbo/centrifugal supercharger should we use?
What rpm does the electrical motor need to spin at to get any results?
What torque is recommended for the electric motor to produce?
Is there any way to use an alternator or upgraded alternator to power the electric turbo?
What batteries should we be looking out for and is there any you can recommend?
What motors can you recommend?
Would a leaf blower do anything (dead serious, always wondered if you got a good enough lead blower if it would actually help your car get more air)?

If I think of more questions ill ask. Sorry if some of these questions have already been answered on the yt channel but I thought it would be nice to put all the newbie information in one place!
 
These are all good questions, and a lot of which I can answer to a certain degree based on my relatively limited experience. And a lot of these questions don't have absolute answers. But here it goes:

What kind of turbo/centrifugal supercharger should we use?
Depends (ha! right off the bat!) It's a balancing act. You need to know what your goals are ahead of time and what your engine application is. There are a few certain things to keep in mind. The more boost you want to run, the more electric power per horsepower you'll need. In other words, it takes more electrical drive power to support 500 hp at 10 psi than it does 500 hp at 5 psi. Exactly how much more is unknown at this point (though some compressor calculations say power to drive a compressor wheel increases with the cube of rpm), but we're gonna find out over time, I'm sure. But more electrical power = more money to spend. Sizing the compressor is vital. Put on a compressor that's too big, and you're wasting power overcoming rotational inertia and you're more likely to go into surge (walking off the compressor map to the left) in the case of a centrifugal compressor. Put on a compressor that's too small, and you'll need more rpm than you can cost-effectively achieve and you'll go off the map to the right (i.e. choke), where there's simply no more flow available and intake temps spike and efficiency falls through the floor. At this point, I wouldn't consider positive displacement compressors for electric drive. Simple because the rotors are very heavy, adiabatic efficiency tends to be lower than with centrifugal compressors and the benefits of positive displacement blowers (i.e. instant, low-rpm boost) are a non-starter when we can spin a centrifugal to any speed at any engine rpm.

This video is what I feel an excellent guide:

Towards that end, I'm liking centrifugal superchargers over turbos for conversion. Mainly because they require less rpm to generate equivalent boost levels, and you don't have to completely design a bearing system from scratch (and turbos use iron center sections and oil-fed bearings. Some cheap ones to consider: Powerdynes; specifically, the BD-11 models. These were pretty good blowers back in the day, and can now usually be found for a song. They were good for about 550 hp or so. They got a bad rap because they were belt driven internally (with a gilmer-style belt), and they tended to break the belts under sudden rpm changes like shifts - we don't have that problem). But the one that currently intrigues me the most is this one:
speedmaster79.com

P-2 Centrifugal Supercharger Polished Head Unit

SpecsBrand:SpeedmasterPart Number:PCE157.1002Part Type:Supercharger, Centrifugal Style Head UnitSupercharger Model:P-2Pulley Included:NoPulley Style:GilmerSupercharger Finish:PolishedMaximum Impeller Speed (rpm):52,000 rpmMaximum Pressure (psi):22 psiMaximum Flow (cfm):1,150 cfmIsentropic...
speedmaster79.com speedmaster79.com

At only $625, you're practically half way there. That would be about the easiest one to convert. And since it appears to be a knock off of a Vortech and similar to an Si trim (what I'm using), it should support at least 700 hp.
 
What rpm does the electrical motor need to spin at to get any results?

That depends entirely on compressor sizing. The post above covers a lot of this, but I'm currently spinning my Si trim to about 28,000 rpm peak. The blower itself is good for over 50,000 rpm, but I'm still operating in quite low boost (under 6 psi).



What torque is recommended for the electric motor to produce?

Horsepower is more important than torque, because horsepower takes rpm into account. Plus, horsepower is easier to figure out for electric motors than torque - simply because it takes 746 watts to make 1 hp; and brushless motors are rated in kv (rpm/volt). For example, my unit uses a modified deep well impact socket to drive a 6mm hex bolt (10mm head size). That seems small, like it will break, until you run the numbers. Suggested max tightening (not breaking) torque for a 6mm 12.9 grade bolt is 14.7 lb-ft. At 40,000 rpm (my motor's max rpm), and 15,000 watts (my motor's max power) or 20 hp, you're only looking at 2.6 lb-ft of torque. That's not a typo. So we're less than one fifth that recommended tightening torque for the bolt, never mind breaking torque.

A basic guide I can share based entirely on my experimentation is you can expect to hit 75% of your motor max rpm under it's full load (wattage-wise). This cost me over $1,000 in motors and ESCs to find out the hard way...



Is there any way to use an alternator or upgraded alternator to power the electric turbo?

Directly? In a word, no. Not unless you're going for very low ultimate output. Torqamp's current model can support about 200hp, and takes 5,000 watts to drive. On my car, it takes just a bit under 18,000 watts to support ~650 hp. Both systems run relatively low boost pressures - under 6 psi. And interestingly, both systems have similar specific outputs - about 25 watts/hp on the torqamp and 27.7 watts/hp on mine. A typical, high-power alternator can output 200 amps at about 14 volts (if you're lucky). That's only 2,800 watts (current x voltage = watts). So you'd be luck to support 100 hp and still have enough left over to drive the car's electrical system trying to drive it straight from the alternator. However, you COULD run say 3x300 amp alternators to support about 400 hp, but that's kind of silly, since you'll have belt issues and be using power to make power - a bit counter to the point of an electric boost device. You're better off using the alternator to charge a battery back since no car is in boost all the time. In fact, most cars spend 10x as much time out of boost (or more) as they do in boost.
 
What batteries should we be looking out for and is there any you can recommend?

This is still a "great unknown." Lipos, LiFePo4s, and LTOs could all be used. I go into my thoughts on these in this thread: https://www.electrifiedboost.com/threads/what-batteries-are-you-using.8/


What motors can you recommend?

I've had good luck with TP Power motors (Chinese). I tend to buy them through Rafael - R-Mamba Brushless on ebay. He's been awesome to deal with. LMT also makes great motors, but they're more expensive (they're German). BUT - you need to be careful with ESCs (electronic speed controllers). Stay away from Flier (Chinese) - their ratings are complete nonsense, and they don't stand behind their products. Plus they have limited functionality. I'm in love with my APD (advanced power drive) ESC; they're an Australian company. I'm sure we'll discover more options as we proceed.


Would a leaf blower do anything?

Sure. But not much, asuuming you're not sealed to the intake. Certainly no significant boost to speak of. Basically about what you'd get from a good ram air setup at 100 mph. But it all comes down to power (Watts). A 2 hp leaf blower would become a restriction at about the 60 hp power level if it's sealed to the throttle body. Unless it has really poor tolerances between the impeller and housing; then you'd get away with a little more before restriction (but a little less at very low power levels due to reduced efficiency).


Hope this helps.
 
One of more important aspects that should be considered is tuning the ECU. If You are converting naturally aspirated engine to a turbo one You need to tune the ECU. I'm not aware of ECUs that would be flexible enough to allow for boost without retuning. So basically for many cars it's a big additional cost that could be about 1/2 or 1/3 of budget to allow for tuning. For example, I own Honda Civic Type R from 2001 and the only way for me to tune ECU is to buy a Hondata which locally for me would cost around 1300 USD just for ECU upgrade. Not including time needed to create new maps in ECU and time spent on dyno/road. Of course there are factory ECUs that can be tuned, there are also piggy solutions that just dump more fuel but overall mounting electric turbo to Your engine will not guarantee more power. At some level maybe ECU is working with Turbo but fuel injectors mounted originally are working basically almost at their limit and giving more air will only suffocate the engine. And as always: You should add more power and play with tuning only after having a good and relibable basis. Don't go into electric turbo if You are having misfire issues or your engine doesn't even hold factory specification power. Tuning is not a solution to bad maintenance habits!
 
That's a good point. I'm kind of assuming people would know that. Back in the day we used to use "fuel management units" or FMUs - basically all they were was boost-referenced fuel pressure regulators that had a ratio - so 1 psi of boost would up your fuel pressure say 6 psi, depending on what you were set to. Another relatively easy way is just to boost pressurize a small tank with methanol and have that spray into the inlet of your compressor. Since we're still talking relatively low boost levels, that would be a viable solution too.

Of course on my car I'm running a Megasquirt MS3x, so none of that is a problem. If I was to do it again, I probably would be running a Holley Dominator EFI setup.
 
Methanol is a good point because it cools down the engine, and probably most of the electric turbo setups will not have intercooler. Methanol injection will help with engine efficiency and operating temperature a lot, especially on hot days/climate.
 
That is absolutely true. And I happen to have a case of methanol in my shed :) But I'm not making enough boost yet to need it...
 
AlexLTDLX said:
These are all good questions, and a lot of which I can answer to a certain degree based on my relatively limited experience. And a lot of these questions don't have absolute answers. But here it goes:

What kind of turbo/centrifugal supercharger should we use?
Depends (ha! right off the bat!) It's a balancing act. You need to know what your goals are ahead of time and what your engine application is. There are a few certain things to keep in mind. The more boost you want to run, the more electric power per horsepower you'll need. In other words, it takes more electrical drive power to support 500 hp at 10 psi than it does 500 hp at 5 psi. Exactly how much more is unknown at this point (though some compressor calculations say power to drive a compressor wheel increases with the cube of rpm), but we're gonna find out over time, I'm sure. But more electrical power = more money to spend. Sizing the compressor is vital. Put on a compressor that's too big, and you're wasting power overcoming rotational inertia and you're more likely to go into surge (walking off the compressor map to the left) in the case of a centrifugal compressor. Put on a compressor that's too small, and you'll need more rpm than you can cost-effectively achieve and you'll go off the map to the right (i.e. choke), where there's simply no more flow available and intake temps spike and efficiency falls through the floor. At this point, I wouldn't consider positive displacement compressors for electric drive. Simple because the rotors are very heavy, adiabatic efficiency tends to be lower than with centrifugal compressors and the benefits of positive displacement blowers (i.e. instant, low-rpm boost) are a non-starter when we can spin a centrifugal to any speed at any engine rpm.

This video is what I feel an excellent guide:

Towards that end, I'm liking centrifugal superchargers over turbos for conversion. Mainly because they require less rpm to generate equivalent boost levels, and you don't have to completely design a bearing system from scratch (and turbos use iron center sections and oil-fed bearings. Some cheap ones to consider: Powerdynes; specifically, the BD-11 models. These were pretty good blowers back in the day, and can now usually be found for a song. They were good for about 550 hp or so. They got a bad rap because they were belt driven internally (with a gilmer-style belt), and they tended to break the belts under sudden rpm changes like shifts - we don't have that problem). But the one that currently intrigues me the most is this one:
speedmaster79.com

P-2 Centrifugal Supercharger Polished Head Unit

SpecsBrand:SpeedmasterPart Number:PCE157.1002Part Type:Supercharger, Centrifugal Style Head UnitSupercharger Model:P-2Pulley Included:NoPulley Style:GilmerSupercharger Finish:PolishedMaximum Impeller Speed (rpm):52,000 rpmMaximum Pressure (psi):22 psiMaximum Flow (cfm):1,150 cfmIsentropic...
speedmaster79.com speedmaster79.com

At only $625, you're practically half way there. That would be about the easiest one to convert. And since it appears to be a knock off of a Vortech and similar to an Si trim (what I'm using), it should support at least 700 hp.
Click to expand...
While I like the data they have published on their website (and on ebay btw, for people who need it shipped across the pond), I found it to be BIG in dimensions.
My target/project (in the very early stages I must say) is a GM LFX 3.6 V6 with 300ish stock hp ... and not much space under the hood.
So ... this blower is BIG (up to 1100 CFM) and has a good efficiency (have not seen a diagram though!) ... and with like 25-30k rpms produced by the emotor I would probably have some healthy air flow and some boost for the 3.6, but I am wondering if the reason for the TP 5860 not spooling faster is more torque related (and ... you tried to get more of torque with the 5870 lately, sacrificing the theoretical max rpm).

Sooo ... I assume a slightly less big SC headunit with a lighter/different impeller might require less torque and would operate in a better range (spooling faster) for my target engine.

I am in the lucky position that a friend might donor a procharger unit which he had been running on a 3.8 JK, until he bent the input shaft. (I will get rid of the whole gearbox anyway :) )

I all works out I might be testing with an older modded procharger unit (no clue what model number yet!) ...
 
ipepe said:
One of more important aspects that should be considered is tuning the ECU. If You are converting naturally aspirated engine to a turbo one You need to tune the ECU. I'm not aware of ECUs that would be flexible enough to allow for boost without retuning. So basically for many cars it's a big additional cost that could be about 1/2 or 1/3 of budget to allow for tuning. For example, I own Honda Civic Type R from 2001 and the only way for me to tune ECU is to buy a Hondata which locally for me would cost around 1300 USD just for ECU upgrade. Not including time needed to create new maps in ECU and time spent on dyno/road. Of course there are factory ECUs that can be tuned, there are also piggy solutions that just dump more fuel but overall mounting electric turbo to Your engine will not guarantee more power. At some level maybe ECU is working with Turbo but fuel injectors mounted originally are working basically almost at their limit and giving more air will only suffocate the engine. And as always: You should add more power and play with tuning only after having a good and relibable basis. Don't go into electric turbo if You are having misfire issues or your engine doesn't even hold factory specification power. Tuning is not a solution to bad maintenance habits!
Click to expand...
HPTuner or EFILive Software, wideband sensors and AFR (and more!) logging and monitoring are your friends ... and of course you need to know what you are doing.
Maybe running colder spark plugs and pulling some timing for the start are a good idea ... and depending on your ECU/engine management/tuning model you need to know if your tuning model actually is MAP or MAF driven. Many modern ECUs already are "boost" capable and do adapt/compensate (in limits ... maybe you need a new MAP sensor)
Then there are things like VE adjustments (on older ECUs) ... and on newer ECUs you need to deal with torque request models.... yada yada.

What I am trying to say here is: avoid piggy back fuel management units!
Their tuning models are often oversimplified and do "collide" with the modern more adaptive ECUs!
(Not talking here about the closed/open loop mess you might cause as well!)

Better try to understand your ECU and tune the ECU itself, best on a dyno and with the help of an experienced tuner who knows both the Software tools mentioned above AND the operating system of your ECU.

And things like fuel pump, fuel pressure and injector sizing on EFI cars certainly need a closer look too if at WOT you cannot get the AFRs below 13! (actually if you can log injector duty cycles and find them above 80% at WOT that already is the correct indicator to size your EFI up!)
 
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You're probably looking at a Procharger P600b - that was one of the first mass-market blowers they had. A good friend of mine put one on his 1963 Buick Riviera Boat tail - it had a nailhead in it (the "wildcat" engine). That thing was a terrifying couch on wheels (esp. with drum brakes all around); particularly flying down the alleys of Capitol Hill in DC, where he lived. I'm glad we both survived that... though for some reason he now looks like a magician. I'm pretty sure the grey hairs came from that deathtrap:

Stoner.jpg

But I (frequently) digress - the P600b will probably work well in your application - a quick google search says a P600b has an internal step up ratio of 3.05:1 and a P1SC (a self-contained P600b) is said to be 4.10:1. If it's a P600b, be aware you'll need to lube the bearings - I use Isoflex NBU-15 from Kluber Lubrication - a bit exotic, but it works. A P1SC won't need that. It may be possible to retrofit the bearings from one to the other as well, but I think they're splash lubed, so that might not help anything. In either case, the blower is rated at 60,000 impeller rpm max, but interestingly it has a larger inducer and exducer diameter than my unit. But since your engine is smaller, I think the 5860 will be more than adequate for your needs. 450 hp should be as easy as falling out of a tree, and 500-550 is probably the reasonable limit in your case. In other words, your tires will hate you.
 
Wondering how the PCE P-2 sold by Speedmasters mentioned by Alex is keeping that axle bearing "lubricated".

Somewhere I read the bearing is "pre packed". What does that mean exactly?

The more I think about it the more that blower makes sense.

But I would think as well about a 30-40kW motor like the LMT 3080 (they have a bigger one even) with an ESC from mgm-controllers.com and their cooling jacket. Plus Alex's LTO s in a big config...

Expensive yes ... but would certainly let that P-2 spin!

Having said that: why exactly are we doing this? Is it just to be more economical than a mechanically driven setup?
There are so many exciting things to explore: longetivity, boost control ( and variable boost!), practicality ... etc etc
 
They use shielded, pre-lubed bearings. Like this: tmk-202ss_xk_xl.jpg

The LMT stuff and the MGM controllers look great too. I may actually step up my motor if I can't get where I want to with the present setup.

Why are we doing this? Because it's got so many advantages - compactness, easy to install (and remove), infinitely controllable, relatively light (those cast iron turbine housings are HEAVY, never mind a Whipple setup (mine added over 100 lbs to the car, all in the worst place - up front and up high)); they take up less space, and the space they do take up can be spread out over the car. No more cutting up exhausts, throwing belts, ditching your air conditioning for boost, etc.

Not to mention it's far more efficient than a supercharger or even a conventional turbo - less boost for the same horsepower output means you can ultimately make more power before your engine blows up. Oh, and less under hood heat, too. the list just goes on and on...
 
so ... I was just looking for confirmation:
It is very well worth it to invest some money into it! Even if that means it costs more than USD 7-8k to get a setup which is efficient, durable and daily driver (and tire shredding) capable.

Since I am starting from zero cost wise (but not from zero proof of concept wise, thanks to You, Alex!) my decision now is made:

For me it will be a LTO battery pack with a fast charger in the trunk, the speedmaster unit, the best of breed RC tech, emotor cooling, air/air intercooler, custom (dyi) composite piping, ESC closed loop (to RPM, MAP, TPS) controlling, some thought about boost control (bypass valve) for those fast events ... and dyi tuning with HPtuners (yes , it woulf not be my first tune ...)

Now ... going to make a BOM/BOQ and a "project plan".
 
I really don't think it'll cost that much, even starting from scratch. I'm probably north of $5k now, possibly over $6k, but I've easily spent more than I should have, all in the name of development. For example - $400 down the drain on a crappy ESC; $800 in LiPo batteries and chargers that I won't be using any more (which I might/should sell); countless connectors, controllers, relays, switches etc that I either didn't use or have since replaced with bigger units. My 5860 TP Power motor was another $250, since replaced with the 5870, etc, etc. You get the idea. I'm sure it's close if not over two grand.
 
You may not NEED to re-tune .. Might car mods just turbod their K truck on the stock ECM and tune, they are boosting around the place just fine... Obviously it would be better with a re-tune for sure... But depending on your car it might by just fine. (but not ideal)

Im expecting to beable to run low boost (like everyone is talking about here) on stock everything..
 
I am following this very closely as I have LLT 3.6 CTS. This amazing and I am ready to start buying my set up. So the TP5860 motor should work? That 400hp to 500hp is right where I want to be. The GM LLT the 2011 CTS is rate at 304HP stock. This is very exciting.
 
Guess next question would be would be any disadvantages going with a P1SC or the P2SC unit you recommend to start with on the small 3.6L V6?
 
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