Electric antilag

Mr. Y

New member
Hello.
I'm working on high-powered small engine in very throttle-response critical application (Honda K24 with 68mm turbo, pro-drifting).
There is no point going 100% electric charging (we need 28 psi of boost at least) - baterries, motor, ESC will be way too heavy.

So what do you think about using E-Turbo to keep main turbo spinning in off-throttle conditions?
How much KW do I need to suck 60lb/min of air from main turbo? Do not need much positive boost at all (I think one psi will be ok), just move air to keep turbo spinning.

Any chance someone can flowtest electric turbo at zero boost (just blow in the air) - how much energy is required to move X amount of air.

PS: Audi and Mercedes already using 5-7kW electric turbos for similar goals on production cars (improve response at low-mid RPMs), but I think they flow a lot less than I need.
 
Hi and welcome. You certainly can sort of do what you're saying - but let me lay out a few points. A turbo, or any other centrifugal compressor for that matter is a compressor - if you're trying to just move air with it with little to no pressure differential, you'll end up in the choke point of the map pretty quick. Also, a centrifugal compressor doesn't really spin on it's own with air going through it particularly well. In fact, pulling 50 lb/min of air through mine results in zero rpm rotation on my setup. That's not how the Audi/Mercedes systems work. What they do is build boost at low rpm until the main turbos can spool up. So they're not doing anything for keeping the turbos spinning, just "filling the gap" until the bigger conventional turbos can start working.

Another point - if you're concerned about weight, you'll be adding weight and complexity to your existing setup. I don't want to come across as a mono-maniacal evangelist for electric boost, but an electric turbo setup would most likely not weigh any more than your current turbo setup if you're willing to go with LiPo batteries - they're the most power-dense. In fact, my original pack was all LiPos, and weighed in at about 12 lbs. That moved 65 lb/min at an average of 5 psi. The hotside of your turbo likely weighs at least 10lbs, and your additional hotside plumbing adds at least twice that. The TP Power motor that I've been using weighs only 2.6 lbs. A pure electric solution with boost whenever you want it would probably weigh less (or the same) as your current setup and allow you to distribute the weight how you want it in the car, rather than forcing you to put it all in one place. And you also wouldn't need to run as much boost to make the same power - remember, turbos aren't free power. They do cause pumping losses in the form of exhaust backpressure that manifests itself in the form of additional boost per hp. I saw 32hp per psi at the wheels through a powerglide(!). To put that in perspective, my Whipple on it's best day was only giving my 15hp per psi on the exact same engine. Chances are you won't need more than 20lbs of boost to match your current peak power, and you'll make a lot more low end torque AND you can literally dial in boost whenever you want it. Plus, it'll put less stress on the engine and give you a much bigger tuning window.

Literally, the only downside is that we're all pioneering here, so expect some development time (and costs - although I've taken $7,000 worth of "hits for the team" - check out the $1700 ESC blowing up thread - and can answer many of your questions along the way). It's also something that has a new element of danger to it - again, check out the $1700 ESC blowing thread (lol).

There's an alternative concept you could try. You could use a roots-type blower (powered by an electric motor) to scavenge the exhaust gases to keep your turbos spinning. But that would likely be heavy, and you'd be dealing with reliability issues, having moving parts in your exhaust stream.

Finally, I can tell you what would be by far the easiest and cheapest solution to your dilemma (racing for over 30 years has taught me a thing or two) - spray a 50 shot of giggle juice when you need to spin your turbo up. Nothing spools up a lazy turbo faster than nitrous.

Finally, finally - you could also built a modest 5.3L, aluminum block LS motor and drop it in. You'll be lighter than your current engine and can easily make 600 hp naturally aspirated. And it'd be somewhat cheap (as far as 600 hp engines go, anyway).

Hope this all helps.
 
Wow, what a detailed response, appreciate it!
So the bottom line is: primary turbo can't be spinned faster by sucking air from it using another centrifugal compressor - right?

And Audi/Mercedes reduce turbo lag not by sucking air through compressor side, but by giving extra exhaust energy forced by electric turbo - right?

My power goal is 900 crank HP, not 600. We're now at 700+ hp level. I've used 60lb/min figure not as target airflow, but as minimal airflow that gives good throttle response (turbo spinning 70K RPMs and faster). Changing engine is not an option, at least not in that car.
Nitrous is great for spooling turbo, but from my experience not suits well our application - there is always some delay before NOS hits (bottle pressure, vaporisation in lines underhood) and most annoying thing that delay always differs... Sometimes instantly, sometimes half-second later...
May be direct port will be much better (I've used pre-TB kits only).
 
Your "bottom line" statement is correct; but your thinking about the Audi/Mercedes systems isn't.

The Audi setup is literally just a small electric supercharger. It literally has nothing to do with the conventional turbos - it's just there to "fill in the gap" until the conventional turbos spool up. Read this: https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/04/20190411-audi.html

There will always be some variation with nitrous. Nitrous is heavily dependent on bottle pressure and bottle pressure is hugely dependent on temperature. As the bottle empties, it also cools itself, reducing pressure, changing the required mixture. So most systems simply push things rich towards the end of each spray event. The downside with going too rich with nitrous is having a buildup of fuel and nitrous under the ring lands is a real possibility and what ends up happening it you blow off ringlands. While I haven't had that happen specifically over the years, I've seen it happen (was never much of a nitrous user - mostly forced induction). But I do have a lot of experience destroying pistons and engine blocks:


12 seconds into that video I give a little memorial service to some pistons I've destroyed. I've also cracked an OEM Ford block in half.

You're going to have one heck of a challenge making that little K24 live at 900 hp; but on the bright side, drifting is just wheelspin, and largely unloaded. Which then brings up another, less common issue - unloaded piston speed. Hydro-locking, detonation and massive power (particularly torque) provide a compressive stress on the connecting rods - the proverbial "hammer and anvil" (always be the anvil, never the hammer, btw). That's how rods get bent. But in a wheelspin scenario like drifting, you don't need a lot of power. What you need are great rod bolts; because now the rod caps see a tremendous stress pulling the pistons down rather than being forced down. You also need to maintain wheelspeed - because in a low torque motor like the K24, it doesn't have the balls to recover from any situation which takes it out of it's sweet spot.

I used to catch rides home from high school with a kid who inherited his grandmother's 1972 Buick Riviera boat tail. It weighed about a million pounds, took weeks to stop, handled like a yacht and only made 250 hp from it's 7.5 liter engine. But it was one of my favorite cars ever. The K24 and the stock Buick engine make similar power. But the Buick would fry the tires for as long as you'd be willing to hold down the go pedal; put the K24 in it, floor it, and it would stall. The difference is massive torque vs. comparatively no torque. Now in my boosted travels, I've always been partial to positive displacement superchargers. They basically shove beyond Buick-level torque into your engine. As fun as that sounds, there are down sides with that too. You see, when you're turning a lot of rpm, cylinder pressure stays relatively low because you have more power strokes per second. When you're not turning alot of rpm, each power stroke needs to put out a lot more power. And that means all the related parts need to be that much beefier.

buick-riviera-side.jpg
F'n gorgeous. Like a tall woman with some junk in the trunk. Don't you just wanna ride her? You'd win drifting events just by showing up.

Over the years, I've developed a saying - "Turbos are for putting up numbers, but blowers win races." For example, in the years I've been affiliated with PINKS: All Out (and we're bringing it back - we just had our first return even in Gulfport, MS a couple of weekends ago), I've never seen a turbo car win. Nitrous, yes. Blower, yes. N/A, yes. But turbo, no. There may have been one that did, but never in my time with the show (I honestly don't know).

That said, hp is just a number. Particularly in something where having the most hp doesn't help you win, like drifting. If you could put that Buick engine, stock, in whatever car you're using you could drift forever, easily, and have no maintenance issues. I'd be targeting torque as efficiently as possible. As you've discovered, turbos are great for making a number, but are finicky as hell. Here's a couple of my friends lined up against each other two years ago:


That's at one of our All Out Live events before we bought the PINKS brand from FOX this year. As awesome as Bill and Tom's cars are, they both suffer from the turbo conundrum - "I make over 3,000 hp, but I can rarely make a clean pass." There's always some bullshittery, usually related to spooling issues (though in that race, Bill was dialing in a new clutch - yes, that Mustang's a stick car; but the clutch tuning is directly related to - you guessed it - turbo spooling). Tom had spooling issues in the next race (at the end of the video, iirc).

Why am I saying all this seemingly unrelated stuff? Because in my mind, it is related. You'd have more success with a Whipple or (even better) a TVS blower in drifting world than you would a turbo. But you'd need to let go of the "900 hp" idea. I've been around the block enough to know that little K24 will give you fits at that power level, and you don't need hp; you need torque. A TVS or Whipple blower is reasonably efficient and provides boost (and therefore torque) instantly on demand.

NOW - christ, this is long. But I'm on a roll. Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? (points to you if you're old enough to get that reference - otherwise google it)... Anyway, let's bring this back around to... wait for it... ELECTRIFIED BOOST! It's literally the best of all worlds, in fact better from a performance perspective than any of them. More efficient than a turbo, boost that is computer controlled (i.e. faster than humanly possible), on demand, at any rpm with actually variable spool time. You get a bigger tuning window, need less boost to accomplish your goals, etc. The downside - nobody makes anything like this (well, except for me, and mine's not for sale). That's why we're all here, no? I'd love to help people develop their own systems for their own needs - which are different than my own. I'm interested in going fast in a straight line. You aren't. But an electric forced induction system is, on paper anyway, the best for both worlds.
 
Alex, I really appreciate your input, but your drift-related statements are outdated.
Well-tuned chassis uses all available power to be faster. Actually you have to tune maximal grip to be competetive. All action begins at about 100mph (most tracks) and then you have to be as fast as possible at maximum angle as possible to win. If your chassis tune will be less grippy than your partner's - you just won't be able to keep up with him. Inertia will throw you out off the track.

Here is an example of different-powered cars (VR38DETT about 850whp vs SR20DETT about 650whp):
See how's harder for 180sx to chase 370z.

Whipple is a big piece of iron - too much weight too high in engine bay, not many chassis can accomodate it without becoming sledgehammer terrible to drive.
So for next 2 years (before will change chassis) we'll stick with K24. Just need to improve response (using 'classic' antilag now, but it's too heavy on valves/seats).

Boosting 2.4 liters to 900hp level using electricity only will require tons of power and weight (nissan leaf motor in the trunk, he-he)... so only some kind of electrical assistance is possible for now. Let's discuss ideas in that field please.
 
I have a friend who has a 72 riviera. Slated for resto-mod soon.
"Bullshittery". HAHA! I steal this word & use it everyday now!
I tend to agree with Alex on the 900hp level k24. Your gonna be working on it ALOT more but...
Should you change your mind I have a welder, torch, grinder & a spare 6.0l ls motor.
Much respect for the chassis tuners on those drift cars. Can't imagine having to tune for sliding/spinning/braking & drive/cornering all out of the same chassis at the same time!
Talk about compromise.
 
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